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memebag said:
That isn't what I'm saying. I'm suggesting the extremists are just more visible now, more amplified.
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No. I don't know how to say this any more clearly. Nearly all 16 of the Republican presidential candidates were far to the right of both Bush (Sr.) and Reagan; so much so, that the 1980 candidates would have been a better fit for the Democratic party. You can't classify the more recent field as "fringe" or "extremists" if they represent a clear majority of the candidates. One can only conclude that the core of the party has moved way to the right.
 
scotchandcigar said:
No. I don't know how to say this any more clearly. Nearly all 16 of the Republican presidential candidates were far to the right of both Bush (Sr.) and Reagan; so much so, that the 1980 candidates would have been a better fit for the Democratic party. You can't classify the more recent field as "fringe" or "extremists" if they represent a clear majority of the candidates. One can only conclude that the core of the party has moved way to the right.
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I don't see that at all. Most of the 2016 Republican nominees are far from extremists. They aren't anything like the Birchers, Pat Buchanan, skinheads, etc on the far right. They try to portray themselves as more extreme than they are to win primaries, but if you look at their policy positions they are in line with 1980s business friendly, moral majority courting GOP platforms.
 
memebag said:
I don't see that at all. Most of the 2016 Republican nominees are far from extremists. They aren't anything like the Birchers, Pat Buchanan, skinheads, etc on the far right. They try to portray themselves as more extreme than they are to win primaries, but if you look at their policy positions they are in line with 1980s business friendly, moral majority courting GOP platforms.
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And again, I wholeheartedly disagree. Just off the top of my head I can think of Ted Cruz, Huckabee, Rubio, Santorum, Trump, and Ben Carson, plus past candidates Herman Caine, Michelle Bachmann, and Palin. Evolution is too contemporary a concept for most of them.
 
scotchandcigar said:
And again, I wholeheartedly disagree. Just off the top of my head I can think of Ted Cruz, Huckabee, Rubio, Santorum, Trump, and Ben Carson, plus past candidates Herman Caine, Michelle Bachmann, and Palin. Evolution is too contemporary a concept for most of them.
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Cruz and Santorum are the only two on that list of 2016 candidate that I would entertain as "extremists". Huckabee and Rubio are pro-business Republicans, nothing extreme about them, Ben Carson is some kind of idiot savant. Donald Trump is not an extremist. He has no philosophy at all.

You didn't mention the party favorites, Bush, Christie, Kasich and Fiorina. The GOP wanted one of them, but the voters refused. The GOP didn't want an extremist and neither did the voters. The GOP wanted a middle of the road candidate who would lower taxes a little, talk tough on foreign policy, pay lip service to the Christians and let business do what it wants. The voters wanted someone who would bring back jobs their parents and grandparents had.

None of it was about evolution.
 
memebag said:
Cruz and Santorum are the only two on that list of 2016 candidate that I would entertain as "extremists". Huckabee and Rubio are pro-business Republicans, nothing extreme about them, Ben Carson is some kind of idiot savant. Donald Trump is not an extremist. He has no philosophy at all.

You didn't mention the party favorites, Bush, Christie, Kasich and Fiorina. The GOP wanted one of them, but the voters refused. The GOP didn't want an extremist and neither did the voters. The GOP wanted a middle of the road candidate who would lower taxes a little, talk tough on foreign policy, pay lip service to the Christians and let business do what it wants. The voters wanted someone who would bring back jobs their parents and grandparents had.

None of it was about evolution.
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My mom hasn't worked since 2002. She got in at North American/Rockwell/Boeing back in 1973, where my grandfather worked. Her husband retired around the same time.

I realized in the early 90s that working at the same place for 25/30 years was not going to happen for me. Companies didn't seem to want to hire people just to retire them. The bottom line matters more to them, and having to pay out a pension for 20/30/40 years was not in their plan.

The old way is gone, and it's not coming back. Anyone who believed Trump would bring back things the way they were in the 50s/60s/70s, is a fool
 
Yes. That cradle to grave deal is a uniquely 20th century form of corporate socialism. It made economic sense when American corporations had to hire Americans to do mindless, repetitive jobs like work on assembly lines or mine coal. Now we have robots for mindless, repetitive jobs, and more and more the robots will do our mindful, unpredictable jobs. The people who believed Trump has the power to upend economic reality are sad, hopeful fools.
 
memebag said:
Cruz and Santorum are the only two on that list of 2016 candidate that I would entertain as "extremists". Huckabee and Rubio are pro-business Republicans, nothing extreme about them, Ben Carson is some kind of idiot savant. Donald Trump is not an extremist. He has no philosophy at all.

You didn't mention the party favorites, Bush, Christie, Kasich and Fiorina. The GOP wanted one of them, but the voters refused. The GOP didn't want an extremist and neither did the voters. The GOP wanted a middle of the road candidate who would lower taxes a little, talk tough on foreign policy, pay lip service to the Christians and let business do what it wants. The voters wanted someone who would bring back jobs their parents and grandparents had.

None of it was about evolution.
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Huckabee, Rubio, and Carson all do not believe in evolution. They all want Christianity and "Intelligent Design" brought to public schools, and along with Fiorina and Cruz and Santorum, all made a top priority of banning abortion in any form. Trump even spoke of punishing women. Many of them advocated for monitoring, tracking, banning, and/or bombing Muslims.

Ironically, Jeb Bush would've been a moderate pick. Christie was a moderate before he ran, but then he pulled a Romney and started shouting right-wing ideas. Kasich is a nobody who only had a chance because he was surrounded by nuts. There was Bobby Jindal as well, but I'm not sure where he stood.

But again, you're only proving my point - the few reasonable, moderate candidates got zero votes. Just like John Huntsman did previously, the party no longer gets votes for moderates.

Edit: I forgot about Rand Paul. Like Christie, he was one thing before he ran (in this case a Libertarian), but became another thing (a warmonger) in order to get votes in the primary.
 
memebag said:
Yes. That cradle to grave deal is a uniquely 20th century form of corporate socialism. It made economic sense when American corporations had to hire Americans to do mindless, repetitive jobs
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Now it's the mindless jobs that are expendable/ replaceable. But companies still value those who have acquired expert knowledge. That's what can't get replaced by robots (for now). However, it's the employees who don't want to stay at one job for their entire career.
 
scotchandcigar said:
Huckabee, Rubio, and Carson all do not believe in evolution. They all want Christianity and "Intelligent Design" brought to public schools, and along with Fiorina and Cruz and Santorum, all made a top priority of banning abortion in any form. Trump even spoke of punishing women. Many of them advocated for monitoring, tracking, banning, and/or bombing Muslims.

Ironically, Jeb Bush would've been a moderate pick. Christie was a moderate before he ran, but then he pulled a Romney and started shouting right-wing ideas. Kasich is a nobody who only had a chance because he was surrounded by nuts. There was Bobby Jindal as well, but I'm not sure where he stood.

But again, you're only proving my point - the few reasonable, moderate candidates got zero votes. Just like John Huntsman did previously, the party no longer gets votes for moderates.

Edit: I forgot about Rand Paul. Like Christie, he was one thing before he ran (in this case a Libertarian), but became another thing (a warmonger) in order to get votes in the primary.
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So being anti-evolution is extremism in your view, and somehow differnent from how America has always been? I think you're imagining a past that never existed. When did Americans embrace evolution? We've always been full of people who believed in a literal interpretation of Genesis. That isn't extremism, it's just fundamental Christianity. Puritans, Catholics, Baptists, etc. You know, Americans.
 
memebag said:
So being anti-evolution is extremism in your view? it's just fundamental Christianity. Puritans, Catholics, Baptists, etc.
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Most people have accepted evolution for the past century. It's not a new concept, and it presents no conflict with religion.

If your premise is that people who identify with a religion don't believe in evolution, I'm done discussing this.
 
scotchandcigar said:
Most people have accepted evolution for the past century. It's not a new concept, and it presents no conflict with religion.

If your premise is that people who identify with a religion don't believe in evolution, I'm done discussing this.
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My position is that opposing evolution isn't extremism, and it isn't a recent development. Several states outlawed teaching evolution early in the 20th century, and those laws were ruled constitutional until the late 1960s.

And most people in the US do not accept evolution, according to Gallup.

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I believe in intelligent design, but if you want to believe in evolution, by all means, have at it.

Creation should be taught by the church and parents.

BTW, there are plenty of scientists who believe in intelligent design, its just nobody pays any attention to them. A search will bring up websites for them
 
scotchandcigar said:
34% of Americans reject evolution entirely
For Darwin Day, 6 facts about the evolution debate | Pew Research Center
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Point 1 from that article: "Only a minority of Americans fully accept evolution through natural selection".

scotchandcigar said:
I don't know how the political extremism discussion has (in your mind) boiled down to Americans believing in evolution. But presidential candidates should not be as misinformed as the general public anyway.
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Recap:

My argument is that we (the US electorate) are no more extreme today than we have been for the last 100 years or so. Extremism is easier to find now because of the internet's low information distribution cost. We are more aware of it now, but it has always been there, and has been much worse. For example, here's a list of KKK members elected to public office.

You brought evolution into the discussion. You cited Huckabee, Rubio, and Carson as extremists because they reject evolution. I don't agree. Rejecting evolution doesn't make a candidate an extremist, nor does it make a voter an extremist. Americans have never embraced evolution.

I accept evolution as a fact, but I understand the creationist position. They don't believe they are "misinformed". They believe they have information scientists do not (that God created humans).
 
HecticArt said:
Let it go already.

Religion AND politics in the same thread.

Just let it go.
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I will, I'm not going to reiterate the points I've made, which he repeatedly ignores. I do want to clarify this
memebag said:
Point 1 from that article: "Only a minority of Americans fully accept evolution through natural selection".
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Point 1 is for those who attribute humanity to natural selection exclusively; anyone who believes in god is excluded from that statistic. The relevant statistic is that 34% of Americans reject evolution entirely, not how many believe in both evolution and god.
 
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