PS3 vs Wii vs XBox 360

Oren

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Oct 13, 2008
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Oh boy! LOL!!! :p

For starters, I listed them in alphabetical order, to be fair!! :p

Overall, what are your opinions...
 

memebag

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I've never played PS3. It's made by Sony, and I hate Sony. I won't even consider buying one.

I've only played a couple of games on Xbox. The graphics are nice, but it's too big and way too loud. The controllers are confusing. You have to pay almost $100 to add wifi. You can't add an internet browser without modding it. I bought it primarily to use as a media player. Game-play seems like a step backwards after the Wii.

I've played Wii the most. It's a brilliant game system: cheap, small, quiet, and easy to use. It has built in wifi. It has an Opera browser. The wiimote is inspired. The games are fun.
 

mrpacs

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we have all 3. Xbox has the best game selection, good graphics. PS3 has the best graphics by far, so-so game selection, and the Wii is our overall family favorite. , games are a bit weak however. If I could only get or have one gaming console it would be the Wii.
 

hexagram

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Well, I'm not going to get involved in any attacks against the other two consoles, so I'll just post some technical stuff about the comparisons between the two consoles.



"The Xbox 360's CPU has more general purpose processing power because it has three general purpose cores, and Cell has just one."



"Cell's claimed advantage is on streaming floating point work which is done on its seven DSP processors."





CPU

The Xbox 360 processor was designed to give game developers the power that they actually need, in an easy to use form. The Cell processor has impressive streaming floating-point power that is of limited use for games.

The majority of game code is a mixture of integer, floating-point, and vector math, with lots of branches and random memory accesses. This code is best handled by a general purpose CPU with a cache, branch predictor, and vector unit.

The Cell's seven DSPs (what Sony calls SPEs) have no cache, no direct access to memory, no branch predictor, and a different instruction set from the PS3's main CPU. They are not designed for or efficient at general purpose computing. DSPs are not appropriate for game programming.

Xbox 360 has three general purpose CPU cores. The Cell processor has only one.

Xbox 360's CPUs has vector processing power on each CPU core. Each Xbox 360 core has 128 vector registers per hardware thread, with a dot product instruction, and a shared 1-MB L2 cache. The Cell processor's vector processing power is mostly on the seven DSPs.

Dot products are critical to games because they are used in 3D math to calculate vector lengths, projections, transformations, and more. The Xbox 360 CPU has a dot product instruction, where other CPUs such as Cell must emulate dot product using multiple instructions.

Cell's streaming floating-point work is done on its seven DSP processors. Since geometry processing is moved to the GPU, the need for streaming floating-point work and other DSP style programming in games has dropped dramatically.

Just like with the PS2's Emotion Engine, with its missing L2 cache, the Cell is designed for a type of game programming that accounts for a minor percentage of processing time.

Sony's CPU is ideal for an environment where 12.5% of the work is general-purpose computing and 87.5% of the work is DSP calculations. That sort of mix makes sense for video playback or networked waveform analysis, but not for games. In fact, when analyzing real games one finds almost the opposite distribution of general purpose computing and DSP calculation requirements. A relatively small percentage of instructions are actually floating point. Of those instructions which are floating-point, very few involve processing continuous streams of numbers. Instead they are used in tasks like AI and path-finding, which require random access to memory and frequent branches, which the DSPs are ill-suited to.

Based on measurements of running next generation games, only ~10-30% of the instructions executed are floating point. The remainders of the instructions are load, store, integer, branch, etc. Even fewer of the instructions executed are streaming floating point—probably ~5-10%. Cell is optimized for streaming floating-point, with 87.5% of its cores good for streaming floating-point and nothing else.
GPU

Even ignoring the bandwidth limitations the PS3's GPU is not as powerful as the Xbox 360's GPU.

Below are the specs from Sony's press release regarding the PS3's GPU.

RSX GPU

* 550 MHz
* Independent vertex/pixel shaders
* 51 billion dot products per second (total system performance)
* 300M transistors
* 136 "shader operations" per clock

The interesting ALU performance numbers are 51 billion dot products per second (total system performance), 300M transistors, and more than twice as powerful as the 6800 Ultra.

The 51 billions dot products per cycle were listed on a summary slide of total graphics system performance and are assumed to include the Cell processor. Sony's calculations seem to assume that the Cell can do a dot product per cycle per DSP, despite not having a dot product instruction.

However, using Sony's claim, 7 dot products per cycle * 3.2 GHz = 22.4 billion dot products per second for the CPU. That leaves 51 - 22.4 = 28.6 billion dot products per second that are left over for the GPU. That leaves 28.6 billion dot products per second / 550 MHz = 52 GPU ALU ops per clock.

It is important to note that if the RSX ALUs are similar to the GeForce 6800 ALUs then they work on vector4s, while the Xbox 360 GPU ALUs work on vector5s. The total programmable GPU floating point performance for the PS3 would be 52 ALU ops * 4 floats per op *2 (madd) * 550 MHz = 228.8 GFLOPS which is less than the Xbox 360's 48 ALU ops * 5 floats per op * 2 (madd) * 500 MHz= 240 GFLOPS.

With the number of transistors being slightly larger on the Xbox 360 GPU (330M) it's not surprising that the total programmable GFLOPs number is very close.

The PS3 does have the additional 7 DSPs on the Cell to add more floating point ops for graphics rendering, but the Xbox 360's three general purpose cores with custom D3D and dot product instructions are more customized for true graphics related calculations.

The 6800 Ultra has 16 pixel pipes, 6 vertex pipes, and runs at 400 MHz. Given the RSX's 2x better than a 6800 Ultra number and the higher frequency of the RSX, one can roughly estimate that it will have 24 pixel shading pipes and 4 vertex shading pipes (fewer vertex shading pipes since the Cell DSPs will do some vertex shading). If the PS3 GPU keeps the 6800 pixel shader pipe co-issue architecture which is hinted at in Sony's press release, this again gives it 24 pixel pipes* 2 issued per pipe + 4 vertex pipes = 52 dot products per clock in the GPU.

If the RSX follows the 6800 Ultra route, it will have 24 texture samplers, but when in use they take up an ALU slot, making the PS3 GPU in practice even less impressive. Even if it does manage to decouple texture fetching from ALU co-issue, it won't have enough bandwidth to fetch the textures anyways.

For shader operations per clock, Sony is most likely counting each pixel pipe as four ALU operations (co-issued vector+scalar) and a texture operation per pixel pipe and 4 scalar operations for each vector pipe, for a total of 24 * (4 + 1) + (4*4) = 136 operations per cycle or 136 * 550 = 74.8 GOps per second.

Given the Xbox 360 GPU's multithreading and balanced design, you really can't compare the two systems in terms of shading operations per clock. However, the Xbox 360's GPU can do 48 ALU operations (each can do a vector4 and scalar op per clock), 16 texture fetches, 32 control flow operations, and 16 programmable vertex fetch operations with tessellation per clock for a total of 48*2 + 16 + 32 + 16 = 160 operations per cycle or 160 * 500 = 80 GOps per second.

Overall, the automatic shader load balancing, memory export features, programmable vertex fetching, programmable triangle tesselator, full rate texture fetching in the vertex shader, and other "well beyond shader model 3.0" features of the Xbox 360 GPU should also contribute to overall rendering performance.
Bandwidth

The PS3 has 22.4 GB/s of GDDR3 bandwidth and 25.6 GB/s of RDRAM bandwidth for a total system bandwidth of 48 GB/s.

The Xbox 360 has 22.4 GB/s of GDDR3 bandwidth and a 256 GB/s of EDRAM bandwidth for a total of 278.4 GB/s total system bandwidth.

Why does the Xbox 360 have such an extreme amount of bandwidth? Even the simplest calculations show that a large amount of bandwidth is consumed by the frame buffer. For example, with simple color rendering and Z testing at 550 MHz the frame buffer alone requires 52.8 GB/s at 8 pixels per clock. The PS3's memory bandwidth is insufficient to maintain its GPU's peak rendering speed, even without texture and vertex fetches.

The PS3 uses Z and color compression to try to compensate for the lack of memory bandwidth. The problem with Z and color compression is that the compression breaks down quickly when rendering complex next-generation 3D scenes.

HDR, alpha-blending, and anti-aliasing require even more memory bandwidth. This is why Xbox 360 has 256 GB/s bandwidth reserved just for the frame buffer. This allows the Xbox 360 GPU to do Z testing, HDR, and alpha blended color rendering with 4X MSAA at full rate and still have the entire main bus bandwidth of 22.4 GB/s left over for textures and vertices.
... and here are some graphical comparisons between the Xbox 360 and PS3 (courtesy of Gamespot)

Xbox 360 Versus PlayStation 3 Graphics Comparison - Features at GameSpot
Xbox 360 Versus PlayStation 3 Graphics Comparison: Round 2 - Features at GameSpot
Xbox 360 Versus PlayStation 3 Graphics Comparison: Round 3 - Features at GameSpot
Xbox 360 vs. PlayStation 3 Graphics Comparison Round 4 - Features at GameSpot

MY CONCLUSION

It's really just a matter of preference (Both the Xbox 360 and the PS3 are both powerful machines in their own way).

The Xbox 360 has a slight advantage (graphically) with some games, and the PS3 has a slight advantage (graphically) with other games. Nothing groundbreaking (mostly shadow effects, textures, and some other minor things).

In the end, it's the same game and the games are equally enjoyable regardless of which console you play them on.

As for the Wii, well... That's a completely different animal and you can't really compare it to the other two.

You have to pay almost $100 to add wifi. You can't add an internet browser without modding it.
You can use just about any router and flash it with DD-WRT and in the end it will only cost you about $20-30 (if you shop around). There was even a time where you could get a FREE router (from a company called FON), and you could use that on the Xbox 360. You just have to keep your eye out for good deals.

As for an internet browser, personally I find that to be an unnecessary feature on a video game console.
 
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Jgatie

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I'm not a game player, though I was in my youth. I've seen all three and the graphics are nice on the X-Box and the PS3. However, the only game system I've ever wanted to actually play myself has been the Wii. I helped my sister set hers up and the adults played it more than the kids. Sure the graphics are circa 1999, but it's an absolutely ingenious interface, it works incredibly well, and the games are actually fun for families. Instead of creating isolated anti-social, introverted, couch lumps; it gets everybody off their ass and interacting. Now if you are like my family, "interacting" usually means a reenactment of The Sopranos "Intervention" episode, but hey, at least we are talking. :cool:
 

memebag

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You can use just about any router and flash it with DD-WRT and in the end it will only cost you about $20-30 (if you shop around). There was even a time where you could get a FREE router (from a company called FON), and you could use that on the Xbox 360. You just have to keep your eye out for good deals.
Yeah, that sounds like fun.

As for an internet browser, personally I find that to be an unnecessary feature on a video game console.
It isn't. But it would make the Xbox plus a D-Link DNS-323 a fantastic little media center. You would be able to find torrents on tracker sites, add them the bittorrent client running on the 323, which would then serve them over UPnP to the XBox, all without a PC. You could also go to Netflix and add content to your "Watch Instantly" queue.

The omission of a web browser is entirely motivated by Microsoft's greed, which is an unpleasant influence on what is supposed to be a source of fun.
 

GordyMac

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Well.. my favorite was the ps3, until I played the Xbox 360.. I find the controllers more comfortable and more games..

I do like the WII for fun just playing around as it requires your actual movements, but overall, I'm with the 360
 

memebag

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I don't see how the lack of a web browser on their console has ANYTHING to do with greed.
Then google it. Microsoft won't put a browser on the Xbox because they don't want people to use it to replace a computer that might be running Windows. Microsoft looses money on each Xbox we buy, but they make money on each Windows computer we buy.
 

hexagram

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Then google it. Microsoft won't put a browser on the Xbox because they don't want people to use it to replace a computer that might be running Windows. Microsoft looses money on each Xbox we buy, but they make money on each Windows computer we buy.
That's not the reason. In fact, that's just speculation from random people on message boards (Microsoft never made such a statement).

Also, the Xbox 360 (or ANY video game console for that matter) can't replace a computer. People need computers for a thousand other things than just web browsing.

Let's also keep in mind that Microsoft has tried Internet on TV before (MSN TV [formerly WebTV])

It's just not a feature that most people look for in a video game console (in fact, Microsoft had a survey in 2006 asking people how interested they would be in an integrated Xbox 360 browser).

Apparently not too many people found it necessary (I sure don't).
 
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memebag

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That's not the reason. In fact, that's just speculation from random people on message boards (Microsoft never made such a statement).

Also, the Xbox 360 (or ANY video game console for that matter) can't replace a computer. People need computers for a thousand other things than just web browsing.

Let's also keep in mind that Microsoft has tried Internet on TV before (MSN TV [formerly WebTV])

It's just not a feature that most people look for in a video game console (in fact, Microsoft had a survey in 2006 asking people how interested they would be in an integrated Xbox 360 browser).

Apparently not too many people found it necessary (I sure don't).
Nothing on a game console is "necessary". Sony and Nintendo offer web browers on their consoles, and neither of them sell PC operating systems.
 

xan_user

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I wont buy anything Sony.

I hate buying anything Microsoft.

That leaves me with Nintendo, me and my kids couldn't be happier.

With netfix on the xbox its getting harder to stay away.

I could never see wanting to browse the web on a game console....unless maybe it played slacker steams.
 

hexagram

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I could never see wanting to browse the web on a game console....unless maybe it played slacker steams.
I don't know about Slacker, but I have SIRIUS on my Xbox 360 (along with other Internet Radio streams that I've discovered).
 

memebag

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I don't hate buying Microsoft products, but I do take a perverse pleasure in buying an Xbox and no games for it. They reportedly lose money on each console and only make it up if you buy games.

I don't want to browse the web from my consoles, but browsers can do more than that. The browser on the Wii can play flash videos, for instance, which lets it act as a rudimentary media player. There are products out there that convert audio & video from a hard drive or the web to flash.

I bet you could get Slacker to play over Opera on the Wii.
 

hexagram

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I don't want to browse the web from my consoles, but browsers can do more than that. The browser on the Wii can play flash videos, for instance, which lets it act as a rudimentary media player. There are products out there that convert audio & video from a hard drive or the web to flash.
You can play flash videos (including YouTube) on the Xbox 360 (using software that is readily available on the internets), and from what I hear, you can even play that Hulu thing that was mentioned on one of the Super Bowl commercials.

As for Microsoft taking a loss on each console, they have managed to drastically reduce manufacturing costs (I'm not sure whether or not they still take a loss per unit, but it is significantly less than where it was at launch).

Also, Microsoft is making more money than the PlayStation 3 and Wii combined... How? A little something called "attach rates" (which stands at 8.1 games per console). I personally own 35+ games.

Oh, and then you have Xbox Live subscription fees AND purchases made on Xbox Live Marketplace as another source of income for Microsoft.
 
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xan_user

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I don't hate buying Microsoft products, but I do take a perverse pleasure in buying an Xbox and no games for it. They reportedly lose money on each console and only make it up if you buy games.

I don't want to browse the web from my consoles, but browsers can do more than that. The browser on the Wii can play flash videos, for instance, which lets it act as a rudimentary media player. There are products out there that convert audio & video from a hard drive or the web to flash.

I bet you could get Slacker to play over Opera on the Wii.
I like your line of thinking on the xbox w no games...or maybe even limiting your xbox game purchases to only used ones from craigslist. My kids might have a hard time understanding having an xbox and no games for it..

I'll have to put the 'opera on wii for slacker', on the long list of nerdy stuff i want to try.

(but I have HTPC thats always on and folding, so really i guess it would be sort of redundant now that i think about it.)

:p
 

Vargas

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We have a Wii for the kids (I play it a good amount too) and I have not played the 360 or PS3 but I know that I play the Wii and just wish that they had the same game selection as the 360 and the PS3. The wii is fun but I wish they had more of the adult styled titles available that the 360 and PS3 do really well with like GTAIV, FALL OF MAN, etc.

I used to love playing games like that on the PS2 and wish the Wii could adapt more of these titles.

The wii is really fun but they have A LOT of really lousy games.