DRC Nascar open forum on Nascar

DexterMorgan

Active Member
Oct 22, 2008
1,224
14
38
Edmonton, Alberta
Much like what Nascar had with the drivers, I think an open thread regarding the state of the sport is needed.

My thoughts:

1) Competition. Nascar is not as competitive as it was earlier this decade. Ill pull some stats out from 2000 if it will please people but suffice to say the new car needs major changes. And I mean major. The leader is too hard to pass and the racing gets too spread out too quickly. I cant speak to what can be done to the aerodynamics of the car, but the mechanical rules need to be opened up so the crews can come up with some different variations of setup. I read some people on here thanking god they were a Nascar fan and not an F1 fan, well when the 10th place car is 12-15 seconds behind after 20 laps of a feul run, people thats not much better than F1.

2) TV Coverage needs a tweak. I like TNT and think ESPN is the best of the partners Nascar has. Last year at Texas and Phoenix, ESPN went the final 45 minutes commercial free to bring us the end of the race. Their coverage is mature, informative and concentrates on what we all want to see, the racing. Then put the start times back to where they were when Nascar was on the rise in TV ratings and you got something to work with.

3) Here is a big one. But the chase needs to go. It has obviously done NOTHING to increase veiwership since its inception. Jimmie Johnson has won 3 straight championships and nobody gives a damn and I think thats in part to the chase. The majority of fans of this sport reject this sport, and thus reject him. Nascar rise to fruition on a championship that could have potentially been decided with a race or two to go. I dont see anything wrong with that. When a championship is out of hand, then the race win becomes the focus. Now its just all championship all the time.
 

9FNZ

Member
Oct 18, 2008
99
0
6
Much like what Nascar had with the drivers, I think an open thread regarding the state of the sport is needed.

3) Here is a big one. But the chase needs to go. It has obviously done NOTHING to increase veiwership since its inception. Jimmie Johnson has won 3 straight championships and nobody gives a damn and I think thats in part to the chase. The majority of fans of this sport reject this sport, and thus reject him. Nascar rise to fruition on a championship that could have potentially been decided with a race or two to go. I dont see anything wrong with that. When a championship is out of hand, then the race win becomes the focus. Now its just all championship all the time.

Dexter, I think you're crazy (not personal) the chase is the best thing that has happened to this sport in it's history in my opinion. I don't have the time to go back and look at how many times since the inception of the chase how many times we would actually have the Championship up for grabs in the last 5-10 races but i'll bet it's only once and that would of probably been 2007. The chase since they started the 10 pt bonus for wins leading up to the chase keeps the drivers fighting for wins up to the chase then in the chase they know a win pays more points than second so they fight for wins there as well to get the championship.
 

flap_jackson

Well-Known Member
Nov 10, 2008
1,706
53
48
Can't disagree with what you're saying, but I just don't know what to do about it.

I like the Chase, but if Jimmie has won the last 3, something is glaringly wrong. Same when guys like Kyle Bush dominate the series beyond everybody else, and he's the only one that knows the perfect setup for his car week after week. If one, two, or three guys are dominating, something is wrong. Don't know what you do about it, but it's boring, and bad TV.

NASCAR also can't put up with crap pre-emptions by Fox. It's freakin' ridiculous, and they shouldn't put up with it. They get better ratings than the MLB, but they don't have the respect of the networks, and NASCAR should say enough is enough. Same with any other network that does that to NASCAR.

Also, shake up the schedule, it's too predictable, and there are still no road courses in the Chase.
 

DexterMorgan

Active Member
Oct 22, 2008
1,224
14
38
Edmonton, Alberta
ESPN has crap preemtions, Americas Home Video? That was inexcuseable no matter what Braindead France had to say about it. I will say with FOX, they go above and beyond the call of duty, especially when they do over their coverage. We got 10 hours of coverage yesterday for half a race. Any other network, in the history of networks would have shoved that to an affiliate or sub station.

As for the chase, I respect the opinion that its more entertaining, but the numbers dont lie. Since its inception it hasnt done a damn thing for this sport. People hated the chase with a passion when it started, and while some people have grown to like it, I think that residual hatred has trickled down throughout the fanbase. But my main problem with it, is not its format, but that the sport in general is all about the chase.

Another aspect of this sport id change is the amount of coverage. I think the sport is over-covered for too little product. There should be a balance and were way way over the limit of coverage. Nascar needs to string the public along like a cat, just give them enough to be happy, and keep them wanting more.
 

dpkimmel2001

Well-Known Member
Nov 6, 2008
2,876
53
48
PA
1) Competition. Nascar is not as competitive as it was earlier this decade. Ill pull some stats out from 2000 if it will please people but suffice to say the new car needs major changes. And I mean major. The leader is too hard to pass and the racing gets too spread out too quickly. I cant speak to what can be done to the aerodynamics of the car, but the mechanical rules need to be opened up so the crews can come up with some different variations of setup. I read some people on here thanking god they were a Nascar fan and not an F1 fan, well when the 10th place car is 12-15 seconds behind after 20 laps of a feul run, people thats not much better than F1.

IMO it is every bit as competitive as it's ever been. There's never been depth to these fields season after season. That will continue as long as this sport lasts. You always have the dominate few & some stragglers that will get it right for a race somewhere along the line. Even so, I agree as well that the car still needs changes. It's been hard to pass long before the COT and will continue to be until they really dirty these cars up similar to the trucks. Surely you remember the endless FOX animations on aero push. If not, GOOGLE or ASK it for articles that span quite a while. The old car was a work in progress up until the time that they quit using it and took many years to develop. The same thing is going on with the current car. I think things will get better when they are finally allowed to work on these cars more.

2) TV Coverage needs a tweak. I like TNT and think ESPN is the best of the partners Nascar has. Last year at Texas and Phoenix, ESPN went the final 45 minutes commercial free to bring us the end of the race. Their coverage is mature, informative and concentrates on what we all want to see, the racing. Then put the start times back to where they were when Nascar was on the rise in TV ratings and you got something to work with.

I say cover the sport and not the sponsors. I saw a little of the Indy 500 this past weekend. I saw enough to say :bigclap: on their coverage. Are you kidding me, race coverage during the commercials. Correct me if I am wrong, and I'm sure you will, but don't they do this each week of IRL coverage? As far as personalities go, there are some announcers that I like and others that I don't. I'll never be pleased with each networks coverage nor will anyone else.

3) Here is a big one. But the chase needs to go. It has obviously done NOTHING to increase veiwership since its inception. Jimmie Johnson has won 3 straight championships and nobody gives a damn and I think thats in part to the chase. The majority of fans of this sport reject this sport, and thus reject him. Nascar rise to fruition on a championship that could have potentially been decided with a race or two to go. I dont see anything wrong with that. When a championship is out of hand, then the race win becomes the focus. Now its just all championship all the time.

I have become a fan of the chase idea. I am not a fan of Jimmy Johnson but he won under the rules that were in place. I don't think that the rules favor anyone in particular. Everyone has the same opportunity during the season to earn points and the same opportunity during the chase. Face it, they're just that good. It's not like there's never been another driver win 3 straight championships. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them win a fourth. :scared:
 

mghtx

2000 Man
Oct 23, 2008
2,368
33
48
I sort of like the IDEA of the chase but somethings just not working. The fact that Gordon didn't win the championship what? two years ago? Yeah, everybody knew the rules going in....

I don't like many of the tracks in the chase either, but for that time of the year, where else could they go?

One of the things the chase was for was to compete against the NFL which is STUPID. Nothing nascar could do would beat the NFL. Frankly I think the nascar season (and the baseball season) just need to be over when the NFL starts.

TV Coverage needs a tweak.

Yes. A BIG tweak. :p Start times, getting rid of the fluff and extra stuff on the screen and just SHOW THE RACE.

Also, shake up the schedule, it's too predictable, and there are still no road courses in the Chase.

Get rid of stupid Auto Club after the 500. What a freakin' joy kill after the big 500 race. I used to HATE road courses but I'm changing my mind a little and now would like a road course in the chase.

Nascar needs to string the public along like a cat, just give them enough to be happy, and keep them wanting more.

I agree in theory. Shorten some of the races and even shorten the schedule.

As a fan I want: more saturday night racing, more short tracks, double file restarts with leaders up front, less Hendrick domination, a new champion this year :p

...
 

Calypso

Queen Calypso
Apr 29, 2009
3,085
118
63
carsandcombat.com
I say cover the sport and not the sponsors. I saw a little of the Indy 500 this past weekend. I saw enough to say :bigclap: on their coverage. Are you kidding me, race coverage during the commercials. Correct me if I am wrong, and I'm sure you will, but don't they do this each week of IRL coverage? As far as personalities go, there are some announcers that I like and others that I don't. I'll never be pleased with each networks coverage nor will anyone else.

Yes they do this with the IRL every race and it is awesome, you don't miss a thing...:bigthumbup:
 

Calypso

Queen Calypso
Apr 29, 2009
3,085
118
63
carsandcombat.com
Here is what it would have looked like without the chase.

CLASSIC POINTS FINISHES 2004-2007

* "Classic" 2008 Points Standings...the old way, not the Chase after Homestead:
(Traditional Points...the old way, not the Chase)
1) #99-Carl Edwards 5236 [9 wins]
2) #48-Jimmie Johnson 5220 -16 [7 wins] CHASE CHAMP
3) #18-Kyle Busch 4984 -252 [8 wins]
4) #16-Greg Biffle 4747 -489 [2 wins]
5) #31-Jeff Burton 4709 -527 [2 wins]
6) #29-Kevin Harvick 4691 -545
7) #88-Dale Earnhardt Jr. 4605 -631 [1 win]
8) #24-Jeff Gordon 4537 - 699
9) #20-Tony Stewart 4487 -749 [1 win]
10) #07-Clint Bowyer 4487 - 749 [1 win]
11) #11-Denny Hamlin 4439 -797 [1 win]
12) #17-Matt Kenseth 4316 -920
13) #6-David Ragan 4299 -937
14) #9-Kasey Kahne 4085 -1151 [2 wins]
(11-16-2008)

* "Classic" 2007 Points Standings...the old way, not the Chase after Homestead:
(Traditional Points...the old way, not the Chase)
1) #24-Jeff Gordon 5455
2) #48-Jimmie Johnson 5102, -353 CHASE CHAMP
3) #20-Tony Stewart 4749
4) #17-Matt Kenseth 4718
5) #11-Denny Hamlin 4623
6) #5-Kyle Busch 4585
7) #99-Carl Edwards 4574
8) #07-Clint Bowyer 4556
9) #31-Jeff Burton 4549
10) #2-Kurt Busch 4371
11) #29-Kevin Harvick 4344
12) #1-Martin Truex Jr. 4314
13) #12-Ryan Newman 4046
14) #16-Greg Biffle 3991
15) #25-Casey Mears 3949
16) #8-Dale Earnhardt Jr. 3929
(11-18-2007)

* "Classic" 2006 Points Standings...the old way, not the Chase after Homestead:
1) #48-Jimmie Johnson 5158 CHASE CHAMP
2) #17-Matt Kenseth, 5154, -4
3) #29-Kevin Harvick, 4838, -320
4) #20-Tony Stewart, 4727, -431
5) #11-Denny Hamlin, 4725, -433
6) #8-Dale Earnhardt Jr., 4641, -517
7) #24-Jeff Gordon, 4567, -591
8) #31-Jeff Burton, 4535, -623
9) #9-Kasey Kahne, 4497, -661
10) #6-Mark Martin, 4484, -674
11) #99-Carl Edwards, 4428, -730
12) #5-Kyle Busch, 4416, -742
13) #16-Greg Biffle, 4075, -1083
(11-19-2006)

* "Classic" 2005 Points Standings - Top 15...the old way, not the Chase after Homestead, race 36 of 36:
1) #20-Tony Stewart, 5199 CHASE CHAMP
2) #16-Greg Biffle, 4984, -215
3) #48-Jimmie Johnson, 4771, -428
4) #6-Mark Martin, 4676, -523
5) #99-Carl Edwards, 4597, -602
6) #2-Rusty Wallace, 4512, -687
7) #17-Matt Kenseth, 4451, -748
8) #12-Ryan Newman, 4409, -790
9) #19-Jeremy Mayfield, 4281, -918
10) #97-Kurt Busch, 4248, -951
11) #24-Jeff Gordon, 4174, -1025
12) #42-Jamie McMurray, 4130, -1069
13) #38-Elliott Sadler, 4084, -1115
14) #29-Kevin Harvick, 4072, -1127
15) #88-Dale Jarrett, 3960, -1239
(11-20-2005)

* "Classic" 2004 Points Standings...the old way, not the Chase after Homestead:
1) #24-Jeff Gordon 5042
2) #48-Jimmie Johnson 4995 -47
3) #8-Dale Earnhardt Jr. 4869 -173
4) #97-Kurt Busch 4795 -247 CHASE CHAMP
5) #20-Tony Stewart 4701 -341
6) #6-Mark Martin 4597 -445
7) #42-Jamie McMurray 4597 -445
8) #17-Matt Kenseth 4376 -666
9) #12-Ryan Newman 4361 -681
10) #38-Elliott Sadler 4315 -727
11) #18-Bobby Labonte 4277 -765
12) #9-Kasey Kahne* 4274 -768
13) #29-Kevin Harvick 4228 -814
14) #88-Dale Jarrett 4214 -828
(11-21-2004)
 

dpkimmel2001

Well-Known Member
Nov 6, 2008
2,876
53
48
PA
Here is what it would have looked like without the chase.

I guess that it is always interesting to go back and see what would have happened but unfortunately it doesn't really mean anything anymore. I can't see them ever changing anything back to the way it used to be.
 

Snoozer

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2008
3,256
89
48
42
Canada Eh!
You're right the chase is here to stay. I'm not a fan but we have to deal with it. Its funny though because 3 out of the five years 1st and 2nd still would have been decided by under 50 pts. So the excitment was there before the changes were made.

That and Jeff Gordon would have and 2 more titles ;)
 

Snoozer

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2008
3,256
89
48
42
Canada Eh!
That is, assuming that everything played out exactly the same. Different strategy would have also played a role in the outcome those seasons.

Very true. Though, I think 07 would have been his year still. He had a 300 + pts lead heading into the last 10 races. But you're right its all speculation at this point.
We have the chanse. I just hope someone else wins its this year.:bigclap: ANYONE else.
 

Calypso

Queen Calypso
Apr 29, 2009
3,085
118
63
carsandcombat.com
I honestly could care less. One thing I hate about the nationwide series is alot of times you know who is going to win the championship there before the end of the season because they have such a huge lead, takes away from the rest of the races I think.
 

dpkimmel2001

Well-Known Member
Nov 6, 2008
2,876
53
48
PA
I honestly could care less. One thing I hate about the nationwide series is alot of times you know who is going to win the championship there before the end of the season because they have such a huge lead, takes away from the rest of the races I think.

That used to happen in Cup most every year too.
 

DexterMorgan

Active Member
Oct 22, 2008
1,224
14
38
Edmonton, Alberta
From 1990 to 2003 the championship was decided 7 of those years before the final race. The sport grew in that time frame too so obviously people either didnt care that much about the championship or they respected the fact that the person winning by such a large margin, won.

I think thats a lot of the issue with the chase in my eyes, the championship is thrown at us 150% of the time, all the time, every time, but we dont give a flying crap that a guy has won it 3 times in a row. Jimmie Johnson gets no respect in Nascar as the greatest driver of this decade. None. And I believe that is because the majority of fans dont respect the chase.

"IMO it is every bit as competitive as it's ever been. There's never been depth to these fields season after season. That will continue as long as this sport lasts. You always have the dominate few & some stragglers that will get it right for a race somewhere along the line"


That is 150% not true either. Less drivers are winning now, less teams are winning, and more importantly less organizations are winning now. Its too predictable that a Hendrick car a Gibbs car, or a Roush car will win a given race. We need more variety in competition and more variety in the winners.

2000- 15 different winners from 8 different organizations
2001- 18 different winners from 14 different organizations

now

2008- 12 different winners from 7 organizations

The stats dont lie.
 

flap_jackson

Well-Known Member
Nov 10, 2008
1,706
53
48
See, the Chase has ruined competition, plus Jeff would have 2 more championships! :bigthumbup:

I'm now against the Chase. :thumbsdown:
 

mghtx

2000 Man
Oct 23, 2008
2,368
33
48
. Its too predictable that a Hendrick car a Gibbs car, or a Roush car will win a given race. We need more variety in competition and more variety in the winners.

MEGA DITTOS! (and I'm a Gibbs fan! :p) I just don't know what all can be done (although I have ideas....;) )
 

DexterMorgan

Active Member
Oct 22, 2008
1,224
14
38
Edmonton, Alberta
"I just don't know what all can be done "

I do! Open up the rule book so many of these great minds may be able to hit on something and contend for race wins more. This so called "box we have to work in" is the most assanine thing ive ever seen.

The structure of Nascar is a lot different now. In 2000/2001 there were a lot of competitive 1 and 2 car teams. Thats nonexistent now.